I'm going to preface this post with the fact that everything mentioned here transpired during my time as a player, and that all that's written here is simply my opinion as a fellow player, rather than staff.
"You see, when one uses stealth the game displays the character as not being detected by anyone not beating their H/MS scores. This is imho all part of the suspension of disbelief that we all have to exercise when playing a video game. Maybe trying to explain my point with examples failed to convey the idea that what the pixels show is a representation of the actions involved, and not necessarily the actions per se. When a character is in stealth in a place where some would (and have, repeatedly now) call cheesy, gamey, and metagamey it is just the pixels representing that character's training and skill at remaining hidden, evading detection, avoiding sightlines, crouching, crawling, using distractions to move from shadow to shadow, represented by the fact that you move at a snail's pace."
Absolutely, but that's not the problem here, nor stealth itself; but rather it's the possibility of people using the ability in plain sight/dubious way in certain situations, which happens all too often.
The point of my post was to underline that the perceived cheesy parts of stealth are within your power to stop from happening with minimal effort, they're not something you're absolutely forced to do. Do as you like around NPCs, as well as when trying to survive against zombies even if you're in the company of others (as this can be justified), but I for one would appreciate practising some semblance of 'realism' around fellow players in select circumstances, namely when sneaking in illuminated indoor areas that also lack obstacles and objects to hide you, or in daylight, etc. It's just a matter of being a good sport.
"1- While I dont completely disagree with your points, I dont think anyone can say even a Marine would be able to run in full speed from one end of an island to another, much less cross an entire desert."
My bad, I misunderstood your meaning there, though even so in FR that scenario wouldn't be too far-fetched. Regardless, NWN is a (shock horror incoming) game. As such the module has been scaled down to a playable scale to stop the playerbase going insane whilst enjoying it and the staff going mad whilst they develop. The world is not realistically scaled, and as important as the understanding of the 'true' scale of the setting is, we're not exactly left with any other choice but to swiftly make our way through a whole region due to this being a game with limitations.
So logically this means that whilst the island is goddamn huge (just like my co... cow) and shouldn't 'realistically' be traversed through so swiftly - especially when under extreme duress - this particular double standard you speak of doesn't really have any relevance in the ongoing discussion, this being a game and a high fantasy setting where such feats are plausible.
"2- Nitpicking here but Healing Kits can be used twice in a single round and do not incur AoOs."
I'm not convinced that they don't incur AoOs, but I don't remember for certain. If that's not the case, it's silly. I already find the usage of them in the middle of combat pretty ridiculous, which is why I mentioned them as an exception in my previous post. They're balanced to some extent considering you lose the whole 'take a 20' feature of it in combat, but even then they could stand to be nerfed even further, imo, though that's neither here nor there.
"And the double standard I am talking about is the fact that no one will bat an eye at a STR 22 character being able to carry the weigh equivalent of a full ATM machine on his back while frantically running and fighting, sometimes for hours,"
Whilst I see where you're coming from, why would we, exactly? It's FR, that sort of behaviour is supported by inhuman ability scores and abilities in general, as well as magic items, bags, and so on. Not to mention it hasn't bothered anyone thus far, nor has it created irksome situations like stealth has - I fail to see why this should be taken into account either.
"While many have expressed their disgust and distaste for anyone who also invested in the numbers needed to execute a task in stealth,"
This sounds like exaggeration in all honesty, I didn't see a single person on the Discord or here on the forums for that matter saying anything of the sort. Nobody is judging you for using stealth, or having invested in it, it's dubious use of its mechanics that warranted any such reaction, which, again, in my eyes is completely understandable, although there's no need for hostility.
"and the argument that PCs using stealth should follow different rules because there arent enough Spot/Listen items would be the same as if I complained that a typical full STR character is cheesing, metagaming and being gamey when they attack me, because there arent enough Armor Class and defensive items for me to prevent being hit."
I'm puzzled as to what led you into this tangent as well, because that's not the argument I was making. I'm saying there should be standards pertaining to common sense when one uses stealth regardless of what items exist and don't exist, as I believe it to be an ideal precedent to set for the server, considering how often misuse of stealth seems to result in the dearth of immersion and annoyingly comedic situations.
"Further on that point there is no discussion that if you are decked for stealth you are indeed suffering in pure combat ability, and even with all the complaints about the lack of items, just yesterday I spotted a character totally dedicated to stealth while having a total of +7 Spot from items, + the points invested in the skill, as a level 6 character."
Of course you suffer in combat prowess when you're given the ability to forego combat entirely through stealth, pratically having been given a permanent invisibility aura. Characters using Spot and Listen gear in the future will be suffering from the very same, too, so it's not exactly a discussion that needs to be brought up.
In regards to your detection of a sneak, it seems likely you were in a party with them or they weren't decked out and/or buffed, as a character meeting both of those requirements is nearly impossible to detect, even with 17 Spot (or Listen), which you must have been close to. Automatic failures aren't a thing with skills here either, which makes it improbable for your detection skills and a 1d20 roll even at a nat 20 to exceed the skills of a properly dedicated sneak with 46-55 MS and Hide. Even if you managed to detect a high-end sneak in a freak incident that is unlikely to occur often (or in any reliable pattern), you can't balance these things according to nat 20s and the best of circumstances - the fact that you MIGHT have spotted a dedicated sneak doesn't really change anything.
"People very easily forget that the Spotter/Listener ALWAYS has a mechanic advantage. The Spotter/Listener is rolling D20 + relevant skill FIVE TIMES PER SECOND against the Sneaker's relevant skills and NO dice rolls, while in Detect Mode. If you crossclass Spot on a WIS 08 character and wear the two very common items with Spot in the module right now, you will absolutely, 100% of the time spot someone who invested up to 28 points in Hide between skills and items, with MINIMAL effort, at level 3."
Not quite. Stealthing in this game favours the one doing the sneaking, with significant penalties to the opposition unless the other player is in detect mode, which isn't the case most of the time, and even so there's still a fair few modifiers that will be in your favour; most of which will continue to mount in a positive manner as long as you keep to objects, ensure there's zombies between you and them, and retain a distance in general, meaning there's a pretty small window of opportunity to have a tiny chance at spotting you, if we operate under the assumption that the one stealthing in this scenario is fully kitted.
Also, Spot is a horrid skill for detection, which you can see for yourself if you delve into the NWN wiki of detection. Listen is factually better, but even then the stealther still has an advantage in most circumstances. That's why there's a 1d20 roll to begin with.
As for our in-game conversation, which shouldn't even have to be brought up on the forums in the first place, it seems that you've misunderstood most of it as well as misremembering what was said; I explicitly stated that I was misled by what another player told me, and thought a wrongful assumption was made (which I apologised for), even with that in mind it wasn't my only qualm with how you use the stealth mechanics. I implored you to consider what I'd explained, and thought things had been smoothed over. Did I assume the worst of you? Yes, absolutely, it was the reasonable thing to do, considering that according to what you were telling others on Tyl'o IC, the only way you knew of it was through what I deem to be unacceptable stealthing.
Though no metagaming seemingly actually happened (which leads me into wondering how it was exactly that you knew of what William and Alsandair spoke of, claiming he was about to join the knights, unless that was an assumption or lie made by your character), and you didn't do any cheesing in that instance, you're nonetheless one of many who employ stealth in the aforementioned ways; in plain view, in dubious spots. I feel compelled to point out that I don't believe you play as you do out of ill will or any kind of negative intent to ruin the fun of others, nor to gain some sort of advantage; not at all, I think you're simply a player who's used to playing a stealthy character without any restriction or thought given to common sense in this instance, which is largely the game's fault and the usual mindset that most NWN servers foster. I don't fault you for this, but I do fault you and anyone else for that matter in continuing to do it, after growing aware of it.
The addition of Spot/Listen items will have to be conducted tentatively, yes; I do agree that it's shaky territory to tread on, but that's why I expressed that an 'equal-ish' approach to it is the way to go. I wouldn't aim for completely equal skill boost values, as characters should be encouraged to invest in their detection skills.
